Long, but worth a read if you care what happens in Iraq.

Comments

This just makes me mad and sad at the same time. I was talking to a colleague from Burma some weeks ago and he had this to say about the rabid pro-democracy activitists - NGOs and those in government.

He said that it makes these people feel warm and fuzzy when they help to overthrow tyrants in the belief that democracy will happen overnight and all good things will happen as if by magic. The reality is, not everyone accepts and perceives democratic principles in the same way and at the same pace. And this is important.

Using Burma as an example, if Aung San Suu Kyi was to be the chief honcho tomorrow, my Burmese friend is convinced that the country will descend into anarchy within a year. The reason is because ordinary Burmese have not been conditioned to live within a democracy and understand fully the ideals of common law and a social compact borne from a legitimate mandate. And as for infrastructure, the country is bereft of technocrats and the intelligentsia necessary to develop workable social policies and laws which are equitable. These people have either been killed or long since exiled to lands far away, never to return.

Today's and tomorrow's Iraq reminds me of this.

And it is why meddling foreign powers need to stop their military adventures if they have half a conscience and a grain of morality.

Interesting comment. I do wonder if places like Iraq needed a Saddam Hussein to keep a lid on the sectarian violence that erupted when he was gone. Your comment does raise the question though, as to just how do you introduce a country like Burma to democracy? I don't know the answer, that's for sure. I doubt that anyone else does either.

Neither do I. But it does highlight one thing: that a one-size-fits-all democratic ideal has the potential to do more harm than good. I think if we could flick a switch and make a place light up in democratic heaven, we'd have sorted it out by now. But I guess some of us suffer more from the human condition and trust in their own righteousness a bit too much.

I see this in the Philippines, I see this in Indonesia, we saw this in Vietnam etc.

Sometimes, helping a country is like raising children. You can only guide them but not do it all for them.

We have all seen how "democracy" has been treated like a panacea to be force-fed on unsuspecting nations; only to see that medicine do a lot more harm than good.

It's a tough one alright.

hmm... now i have to think about this. If we go back to the Iraq before the war, where Saddam was in power before the US got involved. Its very hard for me to rest easy thinking of what Saddam did to his own people and accepting that as something he had to do to keep them in line, to me that almost equates to a racial slur. Basically to me its not much different then the US was before the civil war, many people thought black people were incapable of governing themselves and had to be treated like animals so they would behave. That mindset is offensive to me, so keeping Saddam in power to make his people behave is almost a form of allowing slavery. (not saying thats how you two believe, but thats how i would perceive it.)

On the other hand you may be right, what gives us the right to force modernization on another country. In the end shouldnt it be up to a country (now remember im thinking pre-9/11, pre-iraq) should we stand idly by and allow a ruler to enslave his people because of the possible turmoil that may follow, or should we get involved hoping for a brighter future where the people are free, or should we stand by and hope the paticular country gets fed up enough with it they act on their own. Its all very complicated. Personally considering some of the things Saddam did to iraqis, im not so sure i could just sit by and hope they solved it themselves and im not willing to believe that a group of people has to be treated like cattle for their own good.

So that is one heck of a question, how do you bring democracy to a country who little knowledge of it and perhaps because of lack of exposure to it might not even really understand it, especially in a country where brutality is used to keep people in line, how do you do it and leave violence out of the equation.

As a modern country, any modern country, how can we sit back and allow that type of thing to go on. On one hand i think we need to mind our own business and let them settle it, on the other it repulses me to think that we cant use all of our knowledge and power to help those who suffer that type of brutality.

I hope you know this question is going to bug me all day. :)
[this is good]
This attack on Iraq says a couple of things about us: we live in a very hypocritical, selfish, and arrogant culture that hardly gives a damn about anybody but ourselves. We have a "democracy" that doesn't force our leaders to serve the will of the power. Instead, we the people serve the will of the so-called leaders. And lastly, the U.S. imperialist attack on Iraq will do nothing bring more insecurity to this nation for years to come.

And btw, you can't fucking bring democracy to a country, especially when you really don't have it to bring. That's a piece arrogant bullshit by a bunch of backwards ass Americans who think this country is the best show on earth. Well, it's not. This country kills and steals from people around the world. It is steeped in the history of killing, enslavement of African people, and imperialist theft of labor and resources of other people throughout the world. It's corporate-led and most of it's citizens are seriously naive, privileged, and selfish.

Let's get over this innocent nation bullshit and fucking wake up.
It really comes down to the reasons why countries go to war, doesn't it. There can only be one reason to my way of thinking, and that is to defend your country from external threat. It can be argued that by imposing democracy on another country, that is making your own country safer. I think this is a specious argument, and contrary to the U.N. Charter of which our countries are signatories. I know it is fashionable to rubbish the UN, but this is just an excuse to act outside its charter for purely selfish reasons.

It is impossible to know what really motivated Bush and the neocons to invade Iraq, but it certainly wasn't for altruistic reasons about acting on behalf of the downtrodden Iraqis. In fact, many of Saddam's atrocities were carried out while he was an ally of the U.S. in the war against Iran.

In his book Alan Greenspan leaves no doubt that the war in Iraq was about oil. Greenspan is hardly a raving lefty so you'd have to give some credence to his statement. So, the humanitarian reasons advanced by the hawks for the invasion just don't bear scrutiny. And remember, WMD was supposed to be the reason for the invasion, not regime change. That only morphed into regime change when no WMD were found, to the surprise of no-one except the Bush cheer squad.

That said, the problem now confronting the U.S. is not justification for the war, but where to from here? I think the lesson to be learned is that messing with another country's culture just doesn't work, and as Colin Powell warned, if you go into Iraq you then "own" the country. That is, you "own" all the resultant problems of your actions.

So we have to ask, "What would constitute a successful outcome for the US and Iraq? For Bush,that is a puppet government with a veneer of respectability that would tolerate US bases, and strategic and economic interference in Iraq's internal affairs. I can't see that ever being acceptable to the Muslim Iraqis. Someone has to give, and I think it will be the U.S. after the presidential elections are over.

Then the Iraq war will fade into history, as the Vietnam war did, as another failed intrusion into another country's internal affairs, mainly because of ignorance of the culture of the country they were invading.

I dont agree completely with what your saying but i understand where your coming from but that doesnt change my original perplexing question.

If a country which hasnt been meddled with has a sadistic ruler who is terrorizing and mistreating his citizens, should we stand by and let it happen or do we have the humane responsibility of interfering?

History repeats itself, there was vietnam, now we have iraq and ive no doubt that eventually there will be another country. So somehow or another we have to figure out how to deal with countries who mistreat their own citizens, because i dont care what bush's incentives was for going into Iraq there were hundreds if not thousands Americans that wanted us to stop saddam not only for our own safety but also because of what he was doing to the Iraqi people.
Interfering in another country for humanitarian reasons is a job for the United Nations, not the U.S. That is what it was created for.

The invasion of Iraq has not increased the safety of the U.S., or anywhere else for that matter. Quite the reverse, as the invasion of a Muslim country by a Christian one has acted as the best recruiting weapon to Al Qaeda that bin Laden could have asked for.

There were no Al Qaeda in Iraq before the invasion. As the article shows, what is conveniently lumped together as Al Qaeda by the Bush administration is actually a mix of Sunni resistance and opportunistic jihadists. Today's Sunni member of Al Qaeda is tomorrow on the payroll of the U.S. These people are fighting for daily survival, not ideals. Like anywhere else in the world, the struggle for food and shelter takes precedence over anything else.



True enough, but unfortunately the United Nations is as corrupt as any political entity and haven't been succeeding very well. The United Nations was a noble principle, it was a great ideal, but unfortunately history has taught us any entity that has that much power, also has the ability to misuse it. The United Nations has already abused that power once and by doing so i have no trust in it at all. Although if you can show me one single country where ONLY the United Nations has changed a brutality ruled country into a peaceful one I'll rethink my position.

Im getting into the Iraq debate because I already know we disagree and debating it will not change either of our minds or bring about any good.

As for humanitarian issues, i wasnt thinking on a US level, but on a World Wide Level. You believe the United Nations is the answer but then what, what if that fails as it has in some countries?
Although if you can show me one single country where ONLY the United Nations has changed a brutality ruled country into a peaceful one I'll rethink my position.
Can you show me one where the U.S. has?

Im getting into the Iraq debate because I already know we disagree and debating it will not change either of our minds or bring about any good.
Not sure what you're getting at here. I'm not trying to change your mind on anything. Just tossing points of view back and forth in support of our positions, but respecting the right of each other to hold differing views. It makes us think about the issues.

And can you tell me why you think the invasion of Iraq has made the world a safer place? Do you think Iraq is a safer place, for example? And how is the U.S. a safer place?





Can you show me one where the U.S. has?
Have I ever said that was the US's responsibility? No. But you did say that was the UN's responsibility. Since it is the UN's responsibility according to you, i just want to see an instance where they have achieved it.

And can you tell me why you think the invasion of Iraq has made the world a safer place? Do you think Iraq is a safer place, for example? And how is the U.S. a safer place?

I could if i believed that but i dont. I dont believe we should of went into Iraq when or why we did at that time. Unfortunately thats the past and you cant undo the past.

Until Iraq becomes a self governing peaceful country that has worked out its internal conflicts nothing will change. It will continue to be a hotbed of terrorist activity and internal conflicts along with a power struggle from neighboring countries trying to gain control. It along with any country that encourages and allows terrorist activities will always be a threat to security of the US or any free country for that matter. That doesnt mean i believe we should go charging in to change that, i feel there are other possibilities, unfortunately like ive already said, we are already in Iraq and cant undo whats been done, so we have to find a way for Iraq to become stable where its own people can govern it and control it in peace.

A immediate and full pullout from Iraq and surrounding areas isnt the answer, neither is continuing the same path we are already on.

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Snowy

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Snowy
Australia
"A human being is a part of the whole, called by us, "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security." : Albert Einstein - (1879-1955) Physicist and Professor, Nobel Prize 1921

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